Curse

YunSooJin · Nov 01, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

The problem with the recent AI changes isn't really due to regular mainland PvE, but mostly late game areas ie Realm of Torment.
If you have not tried Realm of Torment with the new AI, please do not bother posting authoritative comments. If people wish to post their experiences, please indicate whether you have or have not been out exploring or playing in the Realm of Torment.

The monster AI has definitely changed.
1) Monsters target backline and midline. They tend to ignore warriors.
2) Warriors/Assassins/Dervish can not hold aggro anymore. Even setting my henchmen far away, they switch from me to the henchmen regularly.
3) In later game areas, henchmen tend to kite the monsters repeatedly. When this occurs, the henchmen either:
a. Do not heal or cast their spells.
b. Aggro other groups.
4) To try to prevent your henchmen from kiting and actually fighting, you can use the flag system. This introduces other problems. Specifically, the henchmen ball up around the flag.
a. Choking gas kills your henchmen.
b. AoE Damage (Fire Djinn, Roaring Ether, Margonite Sorcerors, and much much more) completely destroy your henchmen.

Before this change it was possible to accidentally aggro two groups and survive, with maybe 1-2 deaths. If you aggro two groups of Skree Trackers, you will most likely die. Monster interrupts are potent, and they are very good at killing your backline. Also, it should be noted that your midline has ~60 armor, 70 if you're packing rangers. This means that they are taking level 24-28 warrior/ranger damage, and AoE. This is too much damage for the henchmen to handle with time.

Here is how a typical progression through a map goes.
1. Kill a group.
2. Kill a group.
3. Mhenlo and Odurra dies. Kill the group.
4. Kill a group.
5. Kill a group.
6. Nasty group. Mhenlo, and healer hench die. Everyone else begins ressing. Party wipes as all the NPCs waste their signets.
7. No more signets. Kill a group.
8. Kill another group. Mhenlo or healer hench die again from DP.
9. Party wipes. Everyone is hanging around 30% DP taking into account loss of DP from killing monsters.

From here on in, it's completely downhill. If you fight nasty groups from the get-go (ie multiple elementalists, or lots of caster shutdown), you are liable to just die from the beginning and never get back on your feet.

I have read arguments that this makes it more like PvP.
PVP:
In PvP I face 1 other group of 8 people, level 20, without AI-type interrupts and shutdown. I also have a capable team of 8 people playing with me. My goal is to just survive and kill ONE OTHER group of players. Matches last 20 minutes
PVE:
In PvE I'm facing hordes of monsters. Probably around 20-30 groups in an area, maybe up to 40-50, depending. I am facing ridiculous AI interrupts, ridiculously buffed damage from monsters 4-8 levels ahead of me. My henchmen do not heal like humans, do not hve skillsets like humans, do not have armor and equipment like humans, and tend to bunch up when I direct them to stand and fight. Any type of standard elemental AoE ends up killing them, as well as insane damage from high level monsters.

PvE is not supposed to be like PvP. The reason why PvE is easier from fight to fight is because you are fighting so many monsters. With constant deaths and then party wipes, the game goes from 'fun' to 'frustrating'. Right now the game is frustrating. If it means anything, I'm rank 8, and I have spent months in top 100 GvG guilds, gvging. I know what PvP fun is like. This is not it.

Thanks for reading, please keep up with your opinions on the AI change.

Old Stuff:
EDIT: The main problem now is that I cannot hold any aggro anymore. The soft backline always seems to be a priority for monsters, and the henchmen cannot deal with it. Elona's monsters have much better skillsets than the 2 previous games, and the difference is showing when the henchmen get rolled repeatdly.

The second problem is that Henchmen AI has changed as well. Either the AI has changed, or the AI is responding as it normally would, kiting around like crazy and then aggroing other monsters in tight spots. Maybe the AI was always this bad, and the change to the monster AI helped illustrate what the problem is.

People are arguing that this makes for a better game. I think that particular notion is misguided. In PvP, you face one other team. Not 30 other teams in succession. If you have DP, it only matters for that 20 minute match, not for 2 hours. In PvE, I face tens of groups of monsters repeatedly. If I am exploring or mapping, I am facing 10, 20, 30 to 40 groups of enemies, without rest. If my henchmen lose one guy every 5 groups or party wipe every 15 sets of enemies, I am playing with henchmen that are completley DP'd, die faster than ever, and provide for THE MOST FRUSTRATING GAMING EXPERIENCE IN MY ENTIRE LIFE.

Thanks ANET.

1) Monsters dont ball up on the first target as much anymore.

2) Henchmen act more strangely..kiting more often. Mhenlo seems to be REALLY late on some heals.

3) Wurms are virtually IMPOSSIBLE to kill with henchmen. The wurms target the midline/backline, and when your henchmen get hit, they run away. The wurm then goes back into the ground and comes back up again. You have no time to do damage, and the wurm has boss-type regen, so it just doesn't freaking die.

Not sure what's going on. If they want to change monster AI fine, but my henchmen are dying all over the place now.

Anyone else seeing this change? It seemed starkly apparent to me.

Malice Black · Nov 01, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Yup, was doing a quest on noob island suddenly monk hero does a runner and I get ass f*cked.

Phoenix Ex · Nov 01, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

I do....very obvious in fact. The AI priority basically reverted to the one before NF, where everything and their mother target the monk/casters first, which is annoying as hell. Having to continuously kite 5+ melee mobs is not fun, its almost like playing against an IWAY with uber health and armor and higher dmg attack, not to mention bosses

Now it got even worst since the warrior have a way harder time killing the enemy casters and hurry back to help the monks/friendly casters.

In conclusion, henchmen dies.

YunSooJin · Nov 01, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Why are they messing with AI? Wouldnt it be a better to time fix Moddok Crevice? --;;. And Pogahn Passage (if it hasn't been fixed, anyways)

ps. bonuses for both, I mean.

Malice Black · Nov 01, 2006, 02:56 AM // 02:56

They read the numerous whinging threads on here I guess...giving in to the complainers ftw?

YunSooJin · Nov 01, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Even if they want to change the freaking monster AI, please dont mess with the henchies. It was perfect, but its just retarded.

edit: what the hell do they have beta testers for? -_-

Saphrium · Nov 01, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

To my understanding, the better the AI=the less server loads=less the spending=more money making.

YunSooJin · Nov 01, 2006, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphrium

To my understanding, the better the AI=the less server loads=less the spending=more money making.

you make absolutely no sense here (to me).

I don't see how monsters attacking you or vice versa does anything for server loads.

Kusandaa · Nov 01, 2006, 03:13 AM // 03:13

We chased the priest boss in Dunes of Depair for 3 whole minutes. That's NOT normal. A guildie claims he also chased a priest on Elona across the WHOLE area... which is NOT normal either. It also sucks when one monsters aggroes the next mob, which is huge as heck, and drive them unto you (even worse if that mob also has a few priests...)

And it's not just henches and heroes that gets stuck - minions will randomly stay beside you, stop attacking, or go back where you stood in the middle of a fight. They don't attack a called target anymore. Rit damaging spirits stop attacking if the spammer dies.

Now where is that bug thread... lol

Kha · Nov 01, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

1) Monsters dont ball up on the first target as much anymore.

I must have really good luck with my monk. I can charge into a group of Margonites, stand dead set in the middle, and they all go after my warrior Hero. Occasionally they go after an ele or something, but 80% of the time it's just going after my warrior hero. It makes Cynn's Firestorm actually good now.

I have plenty of problems with the new AI (stop fighting if someone picks up gold/items, cast/cancel/cast/cancel/cast/cancel patterns), but the one thing that is absolutely amazing me is the fact that even though I have played the healing monk role for ALL of Nightfall, I am only rarely the target. Probably less than 1% of the time I am actually damaged by a spell or something. It makes healing so much easier.

This new AI is making being a healer a lot easier than being a MM. I am already annoyed at trying to play my MM in Nightfall and I'm just at the Sunspear Sanctuary. I am sick and tired of my minions running off to fight groups that aren't even close to where we're fighting, and I'm tired of the minions just running back to me and not fighting in battles.

MaglorD · Nov 01, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Well I can't really complain about the AI as I completed the whole of NF with my heroes and henchies on my Dervish and got my green endgame scythe

If anything the AI has improved. Enemy monks and casters actually kite and try to pull other mobs. So you need skills like hamstring etc.

YunSooJin · Nov 01, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Guys, I have no idea if you know how to read the title of a thread but..

I'm discussing the fact that the AI was changed today, and now it sucks.

Phoenix Ex · Nov 01, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

One extra note:

It seems that the "won't scatter from AoE unless very healthy" is not working that well either. The mob scatters and when I looked at the health bar, alot of them are still at 85% health...I am not really sure though since I am in a mess of kiting like mad and all the flashes of 6 other henchies make it hard to see.

MaglorD · Nov 01, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

Guys, I have no idea if you know how to read the title of a thread but..

I'm discussing the fact that the AI was changed today, and now it sucks.

Oops I just reread your title. Didn't realise they made changes to AI yet again. Oh well, lvl 2 Koss not dying to level 20 monsters was getting a bit ridiculous, so the changes were probably in order

Caspar · Nov 01, 2006, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

I must have really good luck with my monk. I can charge into a group of Margonites, stand dead set in the middle, and they all go after my warrior Hero. Occasionally they go after an ele or something, but 80% of the time it's just going after my warrior hero. It makes Cynn's Firestorm actually good now.

I have plenty of problems with the new AI (stop fighting if someone picks up gold/items, cast/cancel/cast/cancel/cast/cancel patterns), but the one thing that is absolutely amazing me is the fact that even though I have played the healing monk role for ALL of Nightfall, I am only rarely the target. Probably less than 1% of the time I am actually damaged by a spell or something. It makes healing so much easier.

This new AI is making being a healer a lot easier than being a MM. I am already annoyed at trying to play my MM in Nightfall and I'm just at the Sunspear Sanctuary. I am sick and tired of my minions running off to fight groups that aren't even close to where we're fighting, and I'm tired of the minions just running back to me and not fighting in battles.

This _used_ to be true until the update today. Now the mobs don't go after warriors, in fact, they run from you. They target casters first and since the henches always group up together, they get "WTF pwned (for a lack of a better phrase)" by AoE's in seconds. I have used both my warrior and my monk for the Nightfall campaign and things were okay because the enemies always ganged my warrior or Devona/Koss when I am using my monk. After the update, however; the aggro is a total mess.

There is no aggro management what-so-ever. The enemies ignore tanks and runs around after the hench casters who are grouped together. After the first few hits, the hench monks starts to run around like headless chickens while the Elementalist hench drops spells like Meteor Shower on running targets. So... what else can I do as a warrior? I take chase after the mob which is chasing my henches... it's actually pretty funny... in an ironic type of way. When the dust settles, I am the only one standing because I was running after my target which was running after my henches the whole time. When I am on my monk, I basically can't do anything at all... If I wand an enemy, I am dead. If I heal my henches, I am dead. If I stay there and command my henches to attack, my henches are dead and of course... I live but I can't do anything alone...

I have played many online RPG's and I know the difference between them and Guild Wars. Most of these RPG's have some type of aggro management for the warrior class. They have skills that taunt the mob and keep aggro but in Guild Wars, there's no such thing. Most of you would think that's because Guild Wars is geared towards PvP but as long as there's a PvE element in the game, an aggro management skill is required, or have the mob aggro the warrior which is what the mobs were doing prior to the Oct 31st update.

I guess it is back to LFG spams to get anything done.

Kha · Nov 01, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caspar

This _used_ to be true until the update today. Now the mobs don't go after warriors, in fact, they run from you. They target casters first and since the henches always group up together, they get "WTF pwned (for a lack of a better phrase)" by AoE's in seconds.

I haven't had that problem at all today. The only problem I have been having is that with my MM, my minions trap me when they bunch up around me because they won't attack ANYTHING.

Ole Man Bourbon · Nov 01, 2006, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Interesting, I didn't think I was getting the "mowing down" effect typical of a 16-attribute MM with 10 minions. Maybe they weren't attacking at all, which would 'splain that. For pity's sake, 2 max MS fire nukers + 10 minion max MM should be doing some serious damage.

Sorry to get off-topic--I haven't tried 10/31 update yet.

AaronSwitchblade · Nov 01, 2006, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Wow, can people really stop complaining about this? When the old AI update made elementalist AoE DoT spells far less useful, they complained and nothing changed.

Most of this stuff people are complaining about, mobs prioritising casters, enemies running from danger, all of it only effects purely melee classes (read: Warriors).

I'm not saying this is what's happening in this thread, as yes, there are some things that need tightening - but I'm sick of all the WAMMO's (or DERMO's, that I would like to call WAMMO mk2) bitching about it - yes, you've been nerfed - yes, your strategy is going to have to change - stop complaining.

Naomi Heartily · Nov 01, 2006, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Yeah, and it's making Grand Court of Selbekeh even harder.

YunSooJin · Nov 01, 2006, 04:42 AM // 04:42

The game is beginning to be unplayable.

Unfortunately for me, hench and hero monks can not run away from choking gas and/or interrupts. It completely shuts my party down and from there on in it is completely freaking gg.

Most retarded update ever.

PS. Choking gas is a euphemism for any other backline shutdown such as massive distracting, savage, cry of frustration and other methods monsters employ in Elona. It's not so bad if you can get aggro onto you, but the monsters keep switching to the backline now.